In an interview, the pontiff says: «Europe shall not break apart, it must be saved, it has human and Christian roots». «Ursula von der Leyen can revive the strength of the Founding Fathers»

With Domenico Agasso, Jr. , LaStampa, August 9, 2019

VATICAN CITY. The Pope opens the door on time at 1030am, with a kind smile on his face. He leads us to one of the rooms he uses to host guests. The room has no frills, distractions or luxury. It’s simply adorned, with a crucifix hanging on the wall. We entered through the Perugino access, the closest to Santa Marta. We find the usual scenario: some clergy, gendarmes and Swiss guards. The Dome of St. Peter appears in the background. In the Vatican, everyday activity is slower amid the summer heat and the holidays. It’s August 6th, the 41st anniversary of St Paul VI’s death, the pontiff to whom Francis feels particularly close. “On this day, I always try to find a moment to go down to the Caves under the Basilica and stay there, alone, in prayer and silence before his tomb. It’s good for my heart,” he says. The brief pleasantries soon leave room to an intense conversation.

“The starting, and restarting, point is human values, values of the human person. Together with Christian values: Europe has human and Christian roots, history tells us that. And when I say this, I don’t separate Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. The Orthodox have a very precious role for Europe. We all share the same founding values”.

Francis is cheerful and relaxed. He is focused. His ability to listen is impressive. He always looks at me in the eyes. He never looks at the clock. He takes his time before speaking on a delicate issue. He speaks of Europe, the Amazon and the environment. Our conversation flows intense and uninterrupted. The Pope doesn’t even drink a sip of water. When we point it out to him, he shrugs and replies, smiling: “I am not the only one who hasn’t drunk”.

Your Holiness, you hope that “Europe might once again be the dream of the Founding Fathers.” What are your expectations?

“Europe cannot and must not break apart. It is a historical, cultural as well as a geographical unity. The dream of the Founding Fathers had substance because it was an implementation of this unity. Now, we must not lose this heritage”.

How do you see it today?

“This unity has weakened over the years, partly because of administration problems and internal disagreements. But it must be saved. After the elections, I hope that a process to relaunch it begins and continues without interruption”.

Are you happy that a woman was appointed to the role of President of the European Commission?

“Yes, also because a woman can be the right person to revive the strength of the Founding Fathers. Women know how to bring people together, unite”.

What are the main challenges?

“One challenge above all: dialogue. Between parties, among people. The thinking must be “Europe first, then each one of us.” “Each one of us” is not secondary, it is important, but Europe counts more. In the European Union, we must talk to each other, confront each other and get to know each other. Yet sometimes we see only compromise monologues. No: we also need to listen”.

What does dialogue need?

“We must start from our own identity”.

Identities: how important are they? Can an excessive defense of identities lead to a risk of isolation? How do we respond to identities that generate extremism?

“Let me give you the example of ecumenical dialogue: I can’t do ecumenism if I don’t start from my being Catholic, and the other who does ecumenism with me must do so as a Protestant, an Orthodox… Our own identity is not negotiable, it integrates itself. The problem with exaggerations is that we isolate our own identity instead of open ourselves. Identity is a wealth – cultural, national, historical, artistic – and each country has its own, but it must be integrated with dialogue. This is crucial: starting from our own identity we must open to dialogue in order to receive something greater from the identity of others. Never forget that “the whole is greater than the parts.” Globalization, unity, should not be conceived as a sphere, but as a polyhedron: each people retains its identity in unity with others”.

What are the dangers of sovereignist ideologies?

“Sovereignism reveals an attitude toward isolation. I am concerned because we hear speeches that resemble those of Hitler in 1934. “Us first, We…We…”: these are frightening thoughts. Sovereignism means being closed. A country should be sovereign but not closed. Sovereignty must be defended, but relations with other countries, with the European community must also be protected and promoted. Sovereignism is an exaggeration that always ends badly: it leads to war”.

What about populism?

“Same thing. At first, I struggled to understand it because when I was studying Theology, I researched the concept of popularism, that is, the culture of the people: but one thing is for people to express themselves, and another is to impose a populist attitude on the people. The people are sovereign (they have their way of thinking, feeling, evaluating, and expressing themselves), while populist movements lead to forms of sovereignism: that suffix, ‘ism’, is never good”.

What is the right path to take when it comes to migrants?

“First of all, never neglect the most important right of all: the right to life. Immigrants come here above all to escape from war or hunger, from the Middle East and Africa. On war, we must commit ourselves and fight for peace. Hunger mainly affects Africa. The African continent is the victim of a cruel curse: in the collective imagination, it seems that this continent should be exploited. Instead, part of the solution is to invest there to help solve their problems and thus stop the migration flows”.

But when they get here, how should we behave?

“Criteria should be followed. First: to receive, which is also a Christian, evangelical duty. Doors shall be opened, not closed. Second: to accompany. Third: to promote. Fourth, to integrate. At the same time, governments must think and act prudently, which is a virtue of governments. Those in charge are called to think about how many migrants they can take in”.

At the same time, governments must think and act prudently, which is a virtue of governments. Those in charge are called to think about how many migrants they can take in”

What if their number is higher than the possibility to take them in?

“The situation can be resolved through dialogue with other countries. Some States need people, I am thinking of agriculture. I have seen that recently in the face of an emergency something similar has happened: this gives me hope. And then, do you know what else would be useful too?”.

What?

“Creativity. For example, they told me that in a European country there are semi-empty towns due to the demographic decline: some migrant communities could be moved there, which among other things might also revive the economy of the area”.

On what common values should the EU be relaunched? Does Europe still need Christianity? And in this context, what role do the Orthodox play?

“The starting, and restarting, point is human values, values of the human person. Together with Christian values: Europe has human and Christian roots, history tells us that. And when I say this, I don’t separate Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. The Orthodox have a very precious role for Europe. We all share the same founding values”.

Let’s ideally cross the ocean and think of South America. Why did you convene a Synod on the Amazon in the Vatican in October?

“It is the “child” of the “Laudato si”. Those who have not read it will never understand the Synod on the Amazon. Laudato si’ is not a green encyclical, it is a social encyclical, which is based on a “green” reality, the custody of Creation”.

Is there any significant episode for you?

“A few months ago, seven fishermen told me: ‘In recent months we have collected 6 tons of plastic’. The other day I read about a huge glacier in Iceland that has almost completely melted: they built a memorial for it. With the Siberia’s wildfires, some glaciers in Greenland melted. The people from a country on the Pacific are moving away because in 20 years the island on which they live will no longer be there. But the fact that has shocked me the most is yet another”.

Which one?

“The Overshoot Day: On July 29th, we used up all the regenerative resources of 2019. From July 30 we started to consume more resources than the planet can regenerate in a year. It’s very serious. It’s a global emergency. Ours will be an urgent Synod. But beware: a Synod is not a meeting of scientists or politicians. It is not a parliament: it is something else. It was convened by the Church and will have an evangelizing mission and dimension. It will be a work of communion guided by the Holy Spirit”.

But why focus on the Amazon?

“It is a representative and decisive place. Together with the oceans it contributes decisively to the survival of the planet. Much of the oxygen we breathe comes from there. That’s why deforestation means killing humanity. And then the Amazon involves nine states, so it doesn’t concern a single nation. And I’m thinking of the richness of the Amazonian plant and animal biodiversity: it’s wonderful”.

The Synod will also discuss the possibility of ordering “viri probati”, elderly and married men who can make up for the lack of clergy. Will it be one of the main themes?

“Absolutely not: it is simply a topic of the Instrumentum Laboris (the working document, ed.). The important thing will be the ministries of evangelization and the different ways of evangelizing”.

What are the obstacles to safeguarding the Amazon?

“The threat to the lives of the people and the land derives from the economic and political interests of society’s dominant sectors”.

So how should politicians behave?

“They should eliminate their connivance and corruption. They must take concrete responsibility, for example on the issue of open-cast mines, which are poisoning water and causing so many diseases. Then there is the issue of fertilizers”.

Your Holiness, what do you fear most for our planet?

“The disappearance of biodiversity. New lethal diseases. A drift and devastation of nature that can lead to the death of humanity”.

Do you see some new awareness on the environment and climate change issue?

“Yes, especially in the movements of young ecologists, such as the one led by Greta Thunberg, “Fridays for future”. I saw a sign from them that struck me: ‘We are the future!’”.

Can our daily conduct – separating waste collection, not wasting water at home – have an impact or is it insufficient to counter this phenomenon?

“It does have an impact, because it is a matter of concrete actions. And then, above all, it creates and spreads the culture of not dirtying creation”.

Article first appeared at: https://www.lastampa.it/vatican-insider/en/2019/08/09/news/pope-francis-warns-against-sovereignism-it-leads-to-war-1.37330049